Monday, September 29, 2008
Additional Comments on Jane Eyre (chapters 27-38)
In the comments box post any questions, observations, and comments still lingering after the student-lead discussions (Monday, September 29 through Wednesday, October 1). You are evaluated during these discussions and may feel that your contributions during class did not adequately convey your understanding of the novel. If so, post comments.
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We talked a lot today about what role passion plays in the novel, especially in these chapters where Jane seems to be contradicting her established ways when she begins considering St. John. The discussion lead into the thought that people are never really satisfied, and that even when you reach a certain level of happiness, its in human nature to be curious about what else is out there, and to want something more to be happy about. Emily brought up the point that this thought definitely lays outside just Bronte's formation of Jane's character. I feel like it's important to reiterate this. I feel that personal experiences often illuminate passion that lies within people unlike Jane Eyre, who regularly exercises her passion. I think you can attain a sense of passion in certain situations and that when faced with decisions like Jane's, sometimes you settle for something that might seem impassionate. SJ talked a lot about how everyone seems to have a bit of restlessness to them, and I think that plays in great with how people always seem to look for something better, or something more, even when they have achieved happiness. I think that Jane Eyre has had a passionate life, and that she is finally getting to a point where she's allowed to sort of contradict the way she usually does things. I feel like she has proven that she is independent, and so just because she starts to vary in her ways a little bit, it doesn’t mean she’s lost any sense of who she has always been.
Today in class we discussed something that has been agitating me for awhile, which is the restlessness of some of the characters. In my thoughts, the restlessness is simply derived from the suppression of certain emotions. For example, Jane; she leaves Thornfield because of a decision she made based off of her religious beliefs and her morals. What I've interpreted from Bronte's writing is that Jane's heart is with Rochester and she is too wrapped up in what she believes to morally right that she doesn't listen to herself. She is afraid of being labelled as one of Rochester's mistresses, and she uses religion/God's will, to justify her decision to leave. As Alex said in class today she seems to use religion as an excuse, which is something i noticed as well. Another example is St. John Rivers, who clearly wants to be with Rosamond, but denies his feelings in order to follow a path which he has made for himself as a missionary. Like Jane, he chooses religion over true love. Rivers speaks of to Jane of her restlessness and passion on page 358, "If you are not ambitious you are"......"impassioned: human affections and sympathies have a most powerful hold on you." He then goes off on a bit of a tangent, that clearly expresses to the reader that he is a passionate and restless person who denies his happiness by choosing a path contrary to what he truly desires. In my opinion, if emotions are suppressed to a degree, anyone can in turn become restless, and few people truly express all of their emotions. This is why I believe most people to have some degree of restlessness.
On Monday, I was asked about my thoughts regarding St. John and passion, and now that i've read the chapters here are my thoughts. On the surface it appears that St. John is the embodiment of repression of passion. After discussing his decision to become a minister, it is clear that to St. John, passion is a "human weakness" that one must "overcome." (364) However, Jane sees signs of his passion attempting to break through when she notes that his speech is "subdued yet emphatic." (364)His passion also becomes evident when Miss Oliver walks in and Jane notices his "eye melt with sudden fire and flicker with resistless emotion." (366)
That entire paragraph gives great insight into St. John and Charlotte Bronte. She writes that St. John has "curbed" his heart "despite the will" he has to repress it. (366)
I remember the class discussing whether Bronte favored expression or repression of passion. This passage definitely favors the expression side because she explicitly refers to expression of passion as "the attainment of liberty" while comparing repression to "curbing a reering steed." (366-367) The steed imagery brings to mind something natural that shouldn't be repressed.
thats what i should have said.
I agree with both Jaclyn and Britta's comments pertaining to SJ/Britta's theme of restlessness throughout the novel. We also mentioned in class (I forget who, sorry!) that Jane has self-denial. She denies herself of her longing to stay with Rochester because she knows it is morally wrong. I believe that this self-denial may have, in part, been adapted from Helen, whom also seemed to deny herself on several occasions. Jane battles with her instinct of passion (B. Hand) when she leaves Rochester despite admitting to forgiving him and loving him.
My question (if I were to have been called on Monday) was whether or not Jane's mother in her dream could have been her own conscience. It is quite clear that Jane has strong religious values, however it is also apparent that she suffered an inner conflict of wanting to stay and be with Rochester (her fiery and passionate personality). However, in this instance Jane chose to SUPRESS her passion, to preserve her Christian morals.
We spoke of the passion of St. John longing to go to India to satisfy his restlessness. Although Jane is also restless, the mission in India will not fulfill her needs because her restlessness is of another nature. Unlike St. John who must further his service to God, Jane's true passion is to find love.
The entire theme of restlessness in this novel is very interesting. It is easy to argue that many characters in Jane Eyre are restless, however is it possible for them ever to be satisfied? As stated in class, is it simply human nature to continuously search for something more/better? I believe that at a point in a person's life, they do find complete happiness, and at this point they are content. For example, in the "fairy tale ending" I believe that Jane and Rochester are satisfied with their lives. Their relationship is not immoral with the passing of Bertha, and Jane is able to care for Rochester as an equal. St. John also seems content having finally escaped the monotony of his lifestyle in England (based on the letters he sends Jane).
In one last quick note, regarding Mr. Cook's statement of "expression vs. suppression", I believe that despite Jane's personality, she does at times supress her passion (as aforementioned) and thus, although it appears that Bronte believe in the end, ultimately ones passion will persevere and be expressed, along the way that passion may be suppressed.
(Sorry for jumping from so many topics in this post. I had too many random notes and wanted to get at least something in from all of them)
I think Britta made some good points about restlessness but I respectfully disagree about something she said about Jane. Britta said "...that Jane's heart is with Rochester and she is too wrapped up in what she believes to morally right that she doesn't listen to herself." I think that Jane does listen to her heart. She deeply passionately loves Rochester but she feels that if she were to stay with him as his mistress that Rochester "...would one day regard me [Jane]with the same feeling which now in his mind desecrated their [his past mistress's] memory" (p. 364 of the 2005 Barnes & Noble Classics Edition). As much as Jane loves Rochester, she knows that she couldn't bear to have him resent her or be disgusted with her. I think that leaving Rochester was one of the most difficult decsions she ever had to make but that she took into account her morals, religion, reason, and heart.
I don't know if we're continuing discussions tomorrow so I was wondering what people thought about the mysticism near the ending. Specifically when Jane hears what she thinks is Rochester's disembodied voice crying "Jane!Jane!Jane!" on page 485 and she calls back "I am coming; wait for me!...Where are you?" and also on p. 518 when Rochester says, "As I exclaimed 'Jane!Jane!Jane!' a voice--I cannot tell whence the voice came, but I know whose voice it was--replied 'I am coming;wait for me!'..." and goes on to explain that he thought the voice was Jane's.
Earlier on in the discussions, we talked about the idea that Rochester and Jane seem to have an air of myth and fantasy about their relationship. I've been wondering why Bronte decided to have their relationship be of that nature. Some ideas I've had is that the fantasy adds an extra air of romance to the novel. I know that scholars have often said that Jane Eyre has characteristics of a Gothic novel and characteristics of a Romantic novel. I definitely think this myticism between Rochester and Jane makes the story more romantic. I was thinking also possibly Bronte was trying to show how inextricably the two are linked when she has it seem as though they communicated telepathically from far away. I don't have any textual evidence and these are mainly just musings so I'd like to hear what other people think.
Brian Hand
Today (Wednesday) the question was asked about the ending of Jane Eyre, and Rochester's disabilities were brought up. It seems to me that Jane and Rochester's relationship wouldn't have been so successful if it weren't for his handicaps. Even Jane says that it was that very "circumstance that drew us so very near." (454) I think this has to do with the issue of dependence. Throughout her Life (the Reeds,Lowood, Thornfield, Moor House) Jane has been dependent on others. After Rochester loses his vision, it is he who is dependent on Jane. She says she was "his vision" and "his right arm." (454) Perhaps this newly acquired power is the driving force behind Jane calling this relationship so great it is "beyond what words can express." (454) However, it's kind of complicated because she refers to their relationship as "perfect concord" despite Rochester's obvious dependence on her. (454)
Something else that I was just thinking that may back up my previous thought: The first time Jane and Rochester's relationship failed it was due in some part to Rochester's desire to decorate Jane with superficial things. After Rochester loses his sight,things are different and Jane says they are so close that she is "bone of his bone" and "flesh of his flesh." (454) But once he regains some of his vision, he begins to notice the superficial things again like a "pale blue dress" and her "gold-watch chain." (454) Perhaps Bronte is pointing out that their relationship could never have flourished without Rochester's illnesses.
But thats seems strange because usually vision is a symbol of seeing truths, and it is the opposite in this situation. Yet it seems odd that after two years of not seeing his wife, the first thing Rochester notes is the "glittering ornament" around Jane's neck and not her. (454)
Michael M
The other day in class we talked a lot about the ending of the book. I lot of people said that Bronte copped out by ending the book in the way she did. I actually think that the ending was appropriate for the story. Throughout the book, Jane goes through struggles and hardships and always tries to keep herself guided by her morals. In the end, she is rewarded for this by marrying the man she loves and having a happy life from that point on. If you relate this to the theme of religion in the book, it resembles a person's path to heaven. In order to get into heaven, people must deny themselves temptation (like marrying Rochester while he is still married), lead moral lives and always do the right thing. Jane always makes the right moral decision and in the end is rewarded with getting into her own heaven (marrying Rochester).
I think that I may have missed the point that Britta was making. I agree with her that Jane suppressed her passion when she decided to leave Rochester. I think that I got confused when Britta said that Jane "didn't listen to herself" and took that to mean that she didn't listen to her heart. I know this sounds nit picky but I think that there is a difference between listening to one's passion and one's heart. I think that if one is entirely taken over by passion it can make one blind and make decsions that are not guided by reason. I think that "listening to one's heart" can have different meanings to different people. To me "listening to one's heart" means understanding what will realistically happen if one decides something important one way or another and doing what is right and moral even if it is hard. I think that Jane does listen to her heart in that she knows that Rochester will become disgusted with her for being his mistress and that she listens to her beliefs that it is wrong and amoral to stay with him.
I think that when Jane left Thornfield, her passion for Rochester was so strong that she was very tempted to stay with him even if he might one day despise her and they would be "living in sin". I really like Mike's lens of looking at the story from the point of view of religion.
I've been doing more thinking about why Bronte included the supernatural in Rochester and Jane's relationship. I think that maybe she uses it in part to show how compatible they are. It seems that often in the novel two characters are described as being like or unlike in nature and that this affects how they get along. Surely, in the beginning of the novel, Jane says that she and Mrs. Reed would have gotten along if Jane had been of a different nature.
Looking at the connection between Jane and Rochester through the lens of religion, it seems that their relationship is so powerful that it transcends the laws of the world and goes into the place of the divine. In the Bible, God often works miracles and wonders. It seems as though Jane and Rochester's seeming telepathic communication is a kind of miracle.
I think it's important to focus on the power of Jane and Rochester's relationship because I agree with Mr. Cook that one of the main themes of this book is love.
When discussing the ending in class the other day, I wanted to mention the confusion I feel when trying to understand Jane's thought process. We consider Jane a thoughtful character. Why then, does she not reflect, in either a paragraph or simple clause, to the news that Bertha is dead? When the villager tells Jane that Bertha is dead, there is no insight to what Jane feels.
I would have loved to learn Jane's initial, thoughtful, reaction to this news. I thought of a few reasons for why Brontë might not describe her thoughts. When Jane debates a passion, because she is wrestling with her repressive side, Brontë is sure to write about Jane's inner arguments. These lengthy paragraphs make us feel a part of the tumult in her mind. But in a fit of passion; like choosing to go see Rochester one last time, hearing of Bertha's death, then suddenly arriving at his home, Jane is set on her decision. At this point in the book, her passionate decision is a reflectiion of finally obeying her soul. Maybe Brontë didn't choose to have Jane reflect on Bertha's death so that her decision would keep the reader from doubting a happy ending.
Still, it was strange because Bertha was always such an obstacle to her and Rochester's love. And then I remembered that Jane, once she learns of Bertha's existence, never really describes to the reader (like she does so often in the book) her feelings towards her. I think Brontë is implying Jane is more concerned with what the people surrounding her REPRESENT, whether it be the faith Helen showed her, or the obstacle that Bertha was, then the characters THEMSELVES.
Also- I suppose Brontë would never choose to have good, sweet Jane reflect upon the positive results one's death may have for her.
Clearly her reaction in the passage where the villager tells her the news of Thornfield confuses me still. And perhaps its insignificant, but I saw it as a change in character, a change in her thoughtful ways, that was worth addressing.
When discussing the ending in class the other day, I wanted to mention the confusion I feel when trying to understand Jane's thought process. We consider Jane a thoughtful character. Why then, does she not reflect, in either a paragraph or simple clause, to the news that Bertha is dead? When the villager tells Jane that Bertha is dead, there is no insight to what Jane feels.
I would have loved to learn Jane's initial, thoughtful, reaction to this news. I thought of a few reasons for why Brontë might not describe her thoughts. When Jane debates a passion, because she is wrestling with her repressive side, Brontë is sure to write about Jane's inner arguments. These lengthy paragraphs make us feel a part of the tumult in her mind. But in a fit of passion; like choosing to go see Rochester one last time, hearing of Bertha's death, then suddenly arriving at his home, Jane is set on her decision. At this point in the book, her passionate decision is a reflectiion of finally obeying her soul. Maybe Brontë didn't choose to have Jane reflect on Bertha's death so that her decision would keep the reader from doubting a happy ending.
Still, it was strange because Bertha was always such an obstacle to her and Rochester's love. And then I remembered that Jane, once she learns of Bertha's existence, never really describes to the reader (like she does so often in the book) her feelings towards her. I think Brontë is implying Jane is more concerned with what the people surrounding her REPRESENT, whether it be the faith Helen showed her, or the obstacle that Bertha was, then the characters THEMSELVES.
Also- I suppose Brontë would never choose to have good, sweet Jane reflect upon the positive results one's death may have for her.
Clearly her reaction in the passage where the villager tells her the news of Thornfield confuses me still. And perhaps its insignificant, but I saw it as a change in character, a change in her thoughtful ways, that was worth addressing.
it seems that everyone is following different things throughout the book, and i'm very intrigued and impressed. but to follow one thing specifically...
i'm sure everyone has now been made aware of the theme of restlessness, since i know i've personally brought it up several times. I was thinking about the impact it has on characters in the book, and about how bronte was using it to say something about life (emotional suppression, freedom, etc). i was contemplating this yesterday at work as i was preparing a lesson to teach my confirmation class at my church, when i came across this quotation in my book:
"Augstine of Hippo (d.430) explored many paths to God before becoming a Christian. Looking back on his journey, he wrote to God that 'our hearts are restless until the rest in you.' He believed that the restlessness in the human spirit, our yearning for truth and goodness, is a gift from God that keeps us from settling for unworthy ways of being."
i was a little shocked when i read this and then looked at my notes on jane eyre. it suddenly seemed like bronte might have been thinking about this quote all along.
we've said from the beginning that although every human is capable of restlessness, it is only expressed in certain characters in this book, specifically, Jane and St. John. Jane seems to struggle very much with her restless soul. i think it's interesting that some people choose to see jane's denial of Rochester as a simply pious decision, and almost selfish in her devotion to her faith, because i see it differently. i think britta makes some excellent points, but i don't think that it's just that jane isnt listening to herself. I also think Ali is onto something, but again, it's more than just the fact that she doesn’t want to be viewed or scorned as a mistress. i know that i wanted jane to be with Rochester, but I can understand why she couldnt be. Her soul was restless, because she was about to settle for an "unworthy way of being", which would never have been ok with her. Jane isn’t giving up happiness or being a stupid, moral, pious fool (think Gwehywifer in Mists of Avalon), she’s being a self-preserving, kind and passionate person. Jane is ruled by her beliefs, she’s just strong enough to assert them when she follows her heart. She IS expressing her emotions by choosing not to marry Rochester when he is still married. But this also explains why she continues her state of restlessness when she lives in Moor House, until she can be with the man she loves in a way that satisfies her feelings and principles.
St John too struggles with his restless soul. He has more self-control than any other character (I don’t have my book to give you direct quotes, but think of when he goes out in all weather to do his work, and willingly gives his able-bodied self to Service, and denies himself marriage with the beautiful Rosamund), and this self-control is really an expression of his restlessness. He wouldn’t feel the need to control himself so astutely if he was simply happy with his state of being. St. John’s restlessness is a different kind than Jane’s since she years for peace in a life she already has, and he is yearning for a completely new way of life to find a way to pacify the swell of emotion he feels the need to pursue. I researched some more of Augustine of Hippo, and found another more appropriate quote for St John: “Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." I think that if you follow St John throughout the book, you’ll find this quote embodies h is concept of hope, anger at passivity and courage to change.
I have more thoughts and evidence but…you get the idea. I’m saying that Jane and St. John’s restless nature isn’t just a result of suppressed emotions, but rather a partially inherent/ partially developed aspect of human nature they are well aware of.
this is about my revision of my essay----is imagery a literary technique?
Or what would imagery be defined as? Can I use it as evidence proving my (hopefully) "bold assertion"?
I have been frustrated with Jane's character for quite some time, and reading chapters 27 and 28 only amplified my agitation. During class discussion someone mentioned how Bronte exemplifies both expression and repression of emotion and desires. The theme of restlessness was also introduced. I, like Britta, feel that this restlessness is a direct result of repressed passion. As important as it is to be morally sound, listening to one's heart is of equal significance. It is clear that Jane yearns to be with Rochester, but still she suppresses her desires and deprives herself of the happiness she would derive from Rochester's constant love and affection. The belief system to which Jane strictly adheres dictates that one must squelch human emotions if/when they do not contribute to one's mission for perfection. Jane believes that in denying herself of a blissful life with Rochester, she becomes that much closer to what Christianity has deemed perfect. In my estimation, the heartache and misery one experience from living in such depravity far over rides any amount of gratification one could derive from pleasing a higher power.
Jane chooses to leave Rochester not only because she believes in suppressing natural desires, but also because she would technically be Rochester's mistress, seeing as he is already married. Even though she knows that Rochester's love for her is pure and unfaltering, Jane feels that being Rochester's second wife is a position severely lacking in dignity. Listening to her head rather than her heart, Jane leaves Thornfield with very little other than the clothing she is wearing. Without friends, relatives, money, and direction, Jane becomes a beggar. It is confusing to me that Jane would refuse to marry Rochester because it would not be dignified, so she opts to flee Thornfield and become a beggar. Where is the dignity in that?
Having read the novel in it's entirety, I would even go so far as to entertain the notion that Jane is both overly scrupulous and contradictory.
On page 133, Jane says, "it seemed a matter of course to obey him promptly." Here Jane still shows the attitude of a servant and not one as an equal to Mr.Rochester. Then Mr. Rochester started to become interested in Jane and Jane realized she was interested in him too. But, she says "sense would resist delirium" on page 155 and decides that the relationship cannot be. But, after she had gone away to visit Gateshead for a month Jane returned and Mr. Rochester "never had...called me more frequently to his presence; never been kinder to me when there-and, alas! never had I loved him so well."(p 249) Finally, Jane desides "then, sir I will marry you." (p257) But, Jane felt that Mr Rochester's smile "was such as a sultan might, in a blissful and fondmoment, bestow on a slave his gold and gems had enriched." (p271) This line makes it very clear that Jane was not an equal in the marriage and could never be. In time problems occur and it became impossible for Jane to marry Mr. Rochester legally. It was discussed in class that Jane wouldn't compromise her values and become a mistress to stay with Mr. Rochester. After overcoming many trials and situations being reversed Jane and Mr. Rochester decide to try and get married again. There was a discussion in class on whether the author was trying to say something with the values back then since Jane couldn't marry Mr. Rochester without getting a huge inheritance and Mr. Rochester being crippled. The author, Charlotte Bronte had recieved criticism that said that the book was great if it was written by a man and terrible if written by a woman. In the end chapter 38 begins with "READER, I married him. A quiet wedding we had." (p452) This showed that Mr Rochester and Jane were finally equal and didn't need to worry about what other people thought about them. In class it was brought up that this showed just how natural it seemed for Jane and Mr. Rochester to marry. A quiet wedding would mean that only the people necessary for a wedding would be present with no need for rich guested and a show as in the first failed wedding.
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